What do you think draws women to this? And how do you keep it separate from your regular life?

I think it's the relationships, right? What led up to this? And what was going on with these two? And usually there's maybe an affair or there's custody issue or, you know, you're doing a deep dive into the human side of this, right? The murder is one thing, but what is surrounding that murder? What led to this? And then I always think there's that sort of maybe satisfaction that as horrific as this crime was, we're ending with that resolution of like, usually this person has been found guilty and is going to prison for the rest of their life.

And then the families, they try to use the tragedy for good, whether it's a new law or it's a new charity or it's starting some type of advocacy group to help others.

People are very resilient, even though it's really shattered their lives.

They find ways to go on.

So I think there's a myriad of things.

And it's like small town USA.

you know?

Are you surprised at what people think they are going to get away with? Always.

Honestly, always.

Every episode, I'm like, why did you think you would get away with that? I don't understand.

And, you know, it all goes back to the relationship.

You know, that's like 90 plus percent of our episodes are it's the relationship at the center that causes all these problems and these tragedies.

Yeah.

Everything was delivery.

Right, everything was delivery.

And so I don't think they thought twice about answering the door, you know, for a delivery man, as many of us may not even today think twice about it.

But it was during a time of a lot of packages.

They opened the door and, and it was a man who, who shot Mark and shot Daniel.

And Esther could hear it, you know, the, the gunshots, and she ran upstairs, and it, it was just so incredibly heartbreaking.

Her, her son, of course, Daniel did not make it, her only child.

And of course, you can watch the video version of Talking Dateline on Peacock or YouTube or subscribe to the NBC News app.

It certainly seemed that way from the beginning.

Yeah.

That, that was, that was the thought of most people close to the case, and s- o- one person from law enforcement told us, and we d- we didn't include this in the show, but that they had actually had an FBI profiler looking at the case at one point, who said that they believed that Dee was somewhere on the property, and likely buried.

So the buried part was not accurate, of course, but there, the, you know, what went into this theory by the FBI certainly panned out.

they were, they were good

... really nice, down-home, you know, farmers as you would expect, business people, really great pe- really great people.

Uh, we did have an incident outside of the barn where I was trying to interview Greg, and Dale's brother was out in the field, uh, doing, plowing the field.

And the tractor came by the interview and coated us with a very, very heavy coating of dust to the point where we had to stop the interview, and I was breathing in dust, and it was going in my eyes.

So before we jump into all of it, Andrea, can you just give us a quick recap of, of this episode?

Yeah, I mean, this one started out with, you know, there's a, there's a fire at Keith Caneiro's house.

He's an entrepreneur, wealthy, very large home.

Um, and his family is inside the house, and they are dead.

Uh, and Keith is dead, and the whole family, it appears, has been murdered.

Then there is another fire 10 miles away.

So the first one's in Colts Neck, the second one is in Ocean Township, New Jersey, and everyone's okay in that house.

Thanks for having me

Mm-hmm.

I think when there are red flags, I think people are afraid to get involved in other people's relationships, or sometimes the victim, when they're still alive, may, may not want to-- their-- to turn their family against the person they're with, so they don't say anything.

But definitely if you-- if a loved one is in a situation where you are feeling uncomfortable about this relationship or you are seeing red flags, like, first of all, I would say don't be a-- don't feel like you're butting in.

Butt in.

You know, that would be my advice.

Like, definitely say something and make sure they're okay and, you know, because the, the more aware maybe, you know, that that partner is that the family's watching, then, you know, maybe, maybe it has a better outcome, right? But then there's like-- I've become friends with this family from my hometown where I did a Dateline, and the husband was a fire captain.

Uh, she was, you know, sh- she worked on, like, building, like, projects with, you know, buildings, and they said it came right out of the blue when he, he staged this car accident and, and then lit the car on fire.

Mm

Now, as a mother, how does an 11 year old end up in a relationship? That's what I want to know.

I know the whole thing is really disturbing and sad, this case.

But apparently she had run away from home, you know, before.

And they prosecutors say these two met online, David and Celeste.

And they started this, you know, some kind of a relationship.

Maybe it started as a friendship.

And then I guess she had like been hanging out with him and the parents had actually reported it that she was missing.

I assume there's many, many more bodies out there that we're just unaware of.

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So now, now I just feel like I'm, I'm doing something right then, I guess, 'cause she's

Um, but just give us a quick rundown of what this episode is about.

Yeah, this episode is about a, a mother, um, Corey Richens.

She had three young boys.

She's married to Eric Richens.

Um, Corey calls 911 in the middle of the night.

She, uh, has found Eric cold to the touch.

Um, first responders come.

You discover Corey Richens has a lover, a secret lover.

So M. O'Brien writes, "I was surprised that Alice's brother, George, wasn't included, as he was the leader for his family in the search and trial, and Grace was, and so included in the episode."

Yeah.

So, um, even though you didn't see George in the episode, he was very, um, uh, involved with, you know, with speaking to us, speaking to his family about the program, giving us information, and also, yes, he played a huge role, um, in searching for Alice.

He's the one who, you know, got that number from the electric company for the apartment complex.

Um, he was the one who hired the private investigator.

So he was very active.

I think it was just a personal choice in the end for George and his, his wife, and it, you know, it, their family.

This is from Lori Reed, who writes, "What is the name of the book that Grace wrote about her sister's disappearance?"

And then there's like not a lot of diabolical murders there.

No, it's small town America that gets all the murders.

And then places like New York City has its share of crime, but it's a different kind of crime.

So it all starts with, you know, local news story or a newspaper story, something online could come from social media, could come from a detective.

We know, you know, it starts with a little germ and then some stories just have a life of their own where suddenly they're huge.

And we're just along for the ride, you know, covering it.

Other ones are stories that no one's ever heard of that have a lot of twists and turns.

Is there like a like a different charge of energy or electricity when you're dealing with one of these people when they walk in the room? Can you feel sometimes a negative energy? Oh, yes,

Give me a quick version of what happened in this episode.

Yeah, I mean, this is about a couple, Susan and Ira Bernstein, um, who had troubles in their marriage for quite a while.

They had three kids, and Ira claims he's working like crazy to pay the bills 'cause they have an extravagant lifestyle.

Then he is reunited with a patient, Kelly Pribylok.

Kelly is, uh, eclectic career, mortician, former mortician, a model, now she's like selling shoe orthotics.

So she comes to Ira, and she says, "I want you to help me, um, with this shoe business." They s- start an affair.

Next thing you know, they are plotting to have Susan killed, and they went to the wrong person.

It's from @EricTPerser, who writes, "Wow, how do you get two easy sentences for attempted murder?"

your attention?

Oh, well, I just had one on Friday night, Secrets in the Ashes, which is there to watch on Peacock or you can stream it.

That one was interesting.

It was two cases.

One was in Texas.

One was in Illinois.

One was a long time ago.

All the checkpoints.

Um, really, st- this is really a story about who you can trust or who you think you can trust.

Yeah, I mean, and, and we needed to take that very seriously as well, you know, because even though, yes, Allison has pled guilty to this, um, you know, they do have a good point, um, Allison and her husband, in saying, you know, pointing out James's flaws as well.

You know, is he to be trusted, or can he manipulate people? So, you know, we, we did take that very seriously, and we contacted James about that, and so it, it was not something we took lightly when putting this story together, you know, that whole discussion surrounding that.

So Allison says that she was manipulated by James.

Um, so you know, that's, that's her side of the story.

Um, and the other thing she really wanted to get across as well, was that she felt like she didn't have the proper representation from her public defender.

You know, she felt like she was sort of railroaded into taking this plea deal, and that it, it just wasn't handled right.

[chuckles]

Andrea, what about you?

I mean, there's so many stories it's hard to single out.

I like ones that involve some kind of adventure.

Mm-hmm.

You know, whether it's like those trivia things, like hanging off the side of a mountain, or going to Zambia on a safari, you know, things like that.

Um, there was an alleged killer that I chased down in the Virgin Islands, and, um, we were coming along on the boat and he saw us, and so he shut the door.

And I went, "Oh my gosh, we missed him." Like on the catamaran.

We missed him.

If you move this to a big city, I don't think his reputation is as widely known but there it was.

There it was, yeah.

It was like the more you dug into it, the more it kind of turned into this...

A bit of a salacious story about what was going on with this, you know, slightly older woman and, you know, she's in her, you know, early 40s.

And then you've got Houston Denker who's early 20s who's, you know...

The...

All the people in town say that he's sleeping around with older women, hence the cougar term.

... nothing happens.

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(quirky music) We have a special edition of Talking Dateline for you this week.

Instead of talking about a particular episode, we wanted to play you a conversation from our first-ever live event.

On September 28th, thousands of Dateline fans gathered at The Pinnacle, a music venue in Nashville.

Lester, Keith, Josh, Blayne, Dennis, and I answered questions about what it's like being Dateline correspondents interviewing murderers, victims' families, and detectives.

We got personal too, reflecting on life on the road and the stories that have stuck with us long after an episode has aired.

The hosts who asked us the questions call themselves Dateline Devotees, but you know them better as actors and real-life husband and wife duo Annette O'Toole from Virgin River and Michael McKean of Better Call Saul and the Spinal Tap movies.

And a lot of these stories have to do with that very topic and the need to be aware of what people are capable of, the need to be aware of what they're also capable of on the positive side, that, that, uh, these are explorations of human nature which are far more illuminating, to me anyway, than, than almost any other kind of news reporting.

Mm-hmm.

...

it does bring in other people.Yes. ... possibly into the mix that they have to look at.

Yeah.

Um, and I know that, you know, talking to Ashley's family, she regretted what happened.

She was trying to save her marriage, um, and that was, you know, that was sad that, that that happened.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Uh, did you feel like you were walking a really narrow line as you navigated this bad blood between these families at the same time you're trying to tell the story?

Yeah, I mean, we're, we're trying to, of course, tell, uh, Crystal's story, which is most important, you know, and Tommy, right? They're the ones who have been killed in all of this and so we have the utmost sensitivity to their family.

Um, but at the same time you also want to give this, you know, idea of wh- who's this other family, right? And also, you know, Nick and, uh, his mom Rosemary, they are unindicted co-conspirators is what they've been called, and so they have not been arrested or charged.

So of course there's that sensitivity as well that, yes, the Ballard family is pointing the finger at them, but they have not been nabbed by law enforcement.

That's the first time I've ever in a story had unindicted co-conspirators, you know, where they're publicly naming family members but not arresting them.

Um, this family went through a lot of pain.

It's like I said to Sherry at one point, I said, "This is too much for one person to bear." You know, and, and when I say one person, it's really, you know, all of them, but, I mean, can you imagine? Poor, poor Tommy, you know, loses his sister in that way, and then history repeats itself with your daughter.

Um, it's awful.

Right.

You know, I don't know.

The police have not confirmed to us that they, even if they think they're connected.

They're very almost cryptic about it in the way that they talk about it.

But if you were to talk to a lot of people in the community-

Mm-hmm.

Um, but, you know, that's one where it's like that went for years with the family saying like, "No, she did not take her own life." And finally the FBI, uh, th- you know, this, this chief from [lips smack] um, one of the police departments involved, she ended up doing an internal affairs investigation-

So Andrea, let me ask you, first of all, do you think, just in your professional opinion, because you've been involved in true crime for so long, do you think that we will ever be able to know what happened to Crystal and where her body's located?

I mean, that is, you know, the million dollar question, right? What happened to Crystal? The family, you know, obviously Brooks Houck, you know, they believe that he is responsible for this.

They also point the finger at members of his family.

Then there's the two other men that were involved, Joseph and Steve Lawson.

They believe 100%.

They know where Crystal's remains are or her body, and they are just not saying.

And that was the one thing during sentencing was like, tell me where my daughter is.

what is your opinion on Tommy Ballard? Do you do you believe it's all connected?

Someone had to have done this."

Yeah.

I mean, they...

There were a number of things happening.

You know, one was, like, Sandra the oversharer.

You know, they were like, if he broke up with her, she was upset, she would have told somebody.

Um, she was also so excited about the baby, um, that that also didn't make sense to them.

What was your, what were your thoughts about her?

the outcome of this case.

Yeah.

And I think that was James Craig, right? Like, that's what they said about him was that he was manipulating everybody all the time.

You know, that, and that, that's, that's from the prosecutors, that he was the ultimate manipulator.

And then of course, he tried to have, um, according to prosecutors again, he tried to, and he was convicted of this, um, tried to have, uh, Bobby killed, the detective.

You know, which is really scary for someone who has already carried out a murder.

And at this point, you know, when, when he's doing this, he's not been convicted yet, but they believe he murdered his wife, so why wouldn't he murder somebody else? Like, you know, what, what you sh- should feel very afraid for your life if someone is already, has already been accused of killing one person.

Uh, this is from, uh, marissa3232 who said, "For Andrea Canning: What would you say is the episode/case that most affected you?"

(laughs)

... you know, where she was showing some of her moves.

Um, and little did Betsy know, at that time when we're shooting this Dateline, that she would be in a future Dateline, another case.

And this was the, the episode called The Safari Story.

Um, and it was about the murder of a woman named Bianca in Zambia.

So Betsy knew the killer.

Betsy knew Bianca's husband, Larry Rudolph, and she was in the same hunting circles as him.

(laughs)

They were a gorgeous family, she's a pharmacist, I mean they were very much a successful family, two cute kids.

Yeah.

I mean they- they grew up in the area, in the Beckley area, um, this is, you know, w- as we open the whole show, you know, it's like where, you know, f- friends are like family and- and everyone just trusts each other, and yes, they had the two kids and they went to West Virginia University.

She got her pharmacy degree and he got his degree in IT and they had all these toys, you know, they had, they were buying boats and motorcycles and properties and going on lavish international-

(laughs)

Because according to them and their theory, 'cause it is a theory, is that she was handling the money.

Michael is finding the contracts and Natalie is, is really executing them.

And she's the one getting the money from the investors, she's the one supposedly getting the money from the government.