Mm-hmm.

Both systems are absolutely awful for hens.

Um, couple of things you missed mentioning was the fact that they chop the tips of their beaks off to try to prevent, um, pecking each other in those stressful, crowded conditions.

The filth is also a problem.

Um, they are living in their own feces and s- and those eggs are also rolling around down the conveyor belts in their feces, sometimes bumping into dead birds.

Um, we've seen those investig- investigations in both conventional and, um, cage-free facilities.

So PETA's take on this is that, um, that while animals are still being mass raised and killed in these conditions, that there are still gonna be massive, massive problems for the hens and there's just a better way forward.

You know what I'm saying?

What's the reality of cage versus cage-free?

Oh, you kind of just described it there.

Cage-free is still the same giant factory farm shed, except there's just one large cage inside this factory farm shed versus the small battery cages where a lot of producers still do keep their hens.

Both systems are absolutely awful for hens.

A couple of things you missed mentioning was the fact that they chop the tips of their beaks off to try to prevent um, pecking each other in those stressful, crowded conditions.

The filth is also a problem.

Um, they are living in their own feces and, and those eggs are also rolling around down the conveyor belts in their feces, sometimes bumping into dead birds.

You know what I'm saying?

What did that legislative process look like? And how did PETA's outside pressure coordinate with the work happening inside the council chambers?

Yeah, that was an exciting one.

And I will say we did also just have another win very recently with Portland, where I'm currently based.

So Portland just passed a ban on the sale of foie gras as well.

So other cities are following New York City's lead.

It's also banned in the state of California.

both the production and sale there.

How do we cross that bridge?

Amber, did you want to add something?

How can I follow up with that? [laughs] Yep.

I think part of the conversation with both what are our asks of these companies, whether they resist, how much they resist it or not, and what our asks are, um, as animal advocates is, is yes, we need to do the hard thing.

I mean, I thought that I was going to be protesting Ringling when I became an activist, and I started protesting as a teenager.

I was like, "I'm gonna be protesting Ringling for my, the rest of my life." I just took it kind of as a given.

And lo and behold, what, a decade now almost, I was at the last protest of the last Ringling show that used animals.

And I think the perspective is maybe lost that when we push for things, for what we really want, what the animals really need, at the right time and the right place for what we really want, you know, we can get those wins.

[chuckles]

What do you think most people would be genuinely surprised to learn about that process?

There's so many.

One is that both... chickens used for food for their flesh and for their eggs, they're abused and the harm is done to them before they're even born, before they're even hatched because of the way that we have manipulated them genetically to be so specialized to be as profitable as possible for each industry.

So as we have probably heard, Chickens used for the meat industry, they call them broilers.

These are Cornish cross chickens.

They've been bred to grow so quickly that they can't even stand up.

They flip over with heart disease and heart attacks, all sorts of ailments, right? Something similar happens to hens used for the egg industry too.

fascinating

However, would you say that this sort of labeling, this sort of language is actually slowing down meaningful change so far as conditions for individuals like Rosemary?

Unfortunately, I would say yes.

You know, we're the...

Side of it being, you know, there are changes that can happen for farmed animals and other animals, you know, welfare improvements that aren't an opportunity for the industry to use to humane wash and increase, you know, profits, profitability.

Right.

So not to say that there aren't some improvements that should be made that are impossible for them to, you know, turn into a humane washing marketing PR opportunity.

But that is what we are seeing with Cage Free.

For the individuals in our life who are compassionate, who do still believe maybe there's a kind way to exploit some animals, how How do you approach an honest conversation with someone in relation to hen laying eggs, egg laying hens specifically? Do you have any recommendations so far as how to, I guess, have that conversation without the loved one or friend you're speaking to completely feeling judged and just shutting down on us?

What about you? Are you taking the position that it's not even always better than battery cages?

Yeah, I mean, there's definitely a lot of nuance here, for sure.

The white paper takes the position, and, and, you know, PETA's v- views on this have evolved as well.

You know, back in the '90s, you know, cage-free again, there was kind of this thought process that said, you know, again, we can, like, regulate this industry into the ground, and it will not exist anymore.

Um, unfortunately, we have lobbying and very powerful industry interests, which I know we're gonna be talking about in a little bit when we talk about the Save Our Bacon Act and things like that.

Um, but one, you know, we're seeing even when stronger standards are put into place, such as Massachusetts, and then they get rolled back to be in line with all of the others, so we're not seeing, you know, that progresses made.

Um, so many companies now that made cage-free promises a decade ago have failed on them, and now even more res- sources are being, um, put into trying to get them to, you know, follow up on the promises that maybe the previous CEO three times removed made.

Can you offer PETA's perspective on the Save Our Bacon Act and what people should do?