And so they're looking for ways to kind of get themselves in the door.

And I agree with that.

But let me add to that a little bit, because I think when we say things like that, like part of the challenge is we haven't reframed mentorship for this increasingly digital era that we're in.

You know, again, mentorship is one of the biggest reasons they're told to be back in the office, you know, and then they get there and, you know, we realize that mentorship wasn't always working effectively just because we showed up anyway, you know.

And so back to that, we can't solve a how problem with a where solution.

I think that that is one of the biggest challenges of our era is really reframing some of these, you know, old problems with the new context that we're in.

And let me use an example that I think is very illustrative of what I mean when I say interlove first, digital first, you know, there's a change management issue, right? And I think that we get lost sometimes between what older generations need and what younger generations need when we talk about this digital era.

And I'm curious, when you thought about creating Design Learns Anonymous, What was the initial idea and how did you get into it? Because it's so niche on some level, but then it's not at all.

So for all of those who haven't read your book and haven't, uh, yet familiarized with your views, can we just kind of summarize of how you see the work is changing, sort of, uh, what are those old rules and the new rules of work?

Mm-hmm.

Absolutely.

So I think that when we talk about generational research, we often get frustrated because I think most generational research implies that older generations have to give something up so that younger generations can get what they want.

Um, but one thing that I think makes this book different is it's really looking at data across generations and how everyone is changing.

So Gen Z is definitely the most extreme.

I think we can learn a lot by looking at them.

Does this align with who they are? Are their values aligned? Can you talk a little bit more of how Gen Z prioritizes their choi- w- their choices, right, based on what, in comparison to what previous generations didn't do?

How so?

So I think we are actually changing the vernacular when we think about work, and I think unfortunately right now we're focused on the wrong problem.

When we hear people talk about work today in the media especially, it's around return to office, but we can't fix a how problem with a where solution.

Bringing them back won't matter if there's a problem with how we're working.

So the next generations who are naturally digital first, meaning they see the world through a digital mindset, can really help us figure out how to evolve work for this phygital era, meaning blending physical and digital work.

Uh, I m- what changed?

Yeah, I think it's this era of risk aversion.

You talk about the slow life.

And I

think that would make a lot of people really uncomfortable, right? But also like for me, it makes me feel like a more authentic version of myself.

Like my local people know who I am outside of local and outside of soccer games and all these things.

And I also, if you haven't seen on LinkedIn and some of my social posts, I also bring my kids and now even my friend's kids into, you know, a lot of what I do.

And I think it's really important because I think one reason my career has been what it is, is because my dad did that for me.

He just exposed me to a lot of the professional world before I was ready or even knew what I was seeing.

And so it's fun to be able to pay that forward.

But what do they say?

It was work specific to the industry of, of interior design and the built world around us.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I think that's been maybe one of the most interesting things about this to me because since that initial meeting of you and I in 2012, you know, I've been studying this industry deeply, and I will say, kicking this off, we thought we were studying an industry, but we ended up uncovering a shift in how work works.

So, um, to give your listeners just a little bit of background there, um, we are thinkLab.

We are the research division of Interior Design Magazine, if you haven't heard of us, and every year we do something called a hackathon.

Um, you've probably heard of hackathons in, you know, tech circles and things like that, but we're trying to bring the same type of let's figure out a big, hairy problem by bringing the right people in the room, um, to the interior design industry and this space.

[laughs]

[laughing]

I wanna suggest rather than stereotyping, we look to Gen Z as prototypes to help us build a better future.

When we prototype something, we keep the aspects that work, and we iterate on those that don't.

Now, I've spent my career researching and writing about topics that matter to the world of workplace design and the knowledge workers who inhabit those spaces.

If that's you or you manage a team of office workers, I'm glad you're here because I wanna argue that this topic right now has never been more important.

In fact, I wanna suggest that work is broken.

But don't worry, in the next ten minutes, I'm gonna take you on a journey to understand why I say that and give us some inspiration, some what-ifs to fix it.

[laughing]

[laughs]

I wanna suggest rather than stereotyping, we look to Gen Z as prototypes to help us build a better future.

When we prototype something, we keep the aspects that work, and we iterate on those that don't.

Now, I've spent my career researching and writing about topics that matter to the world of workplace design and the knowledge workers who inhabit those spaces.

If that's you or you manage a team of office workers, I'm glad you're here because I wanna argue that this topic right now has never been more important.

In fact, I wanna suggest that work is broken.

But don't worry.

[laughs]