And, and so I, I really appreciate and wanna get your thoughts on those kind of movements being incorporated, the more bottom-up movements versus kind of the big political top-down movements, which I think in- would include sort of Indigenous and enslaved and free as part of that kind of bottom-up.

Yeah, absolutely.

And, and I think that's a very, very important point and a very good question.

Um, in, in, in the book I try to strike a, a, a balance, and an easy ba- balance and, um, but still a balance between offering those two points of view.

So on, on one hand, you know, k- when we talk about this imagination, you know, your question remind me I'm a, I'm a big fan of Calvin and Hobbes comic book, uh, strip, right? When, uh, uh, one of the comic books, their, uh, strips, there's this, you know, talk about w- you know, happiness and, you know, Calvin says, "Well, it's, uh, is it, uh, fame, money and power?" [laughs] And, uh, and sure.

So if, if you are in the position of, of an elite in, in France or Spain, of course it is about fame, money and power.

And, and in many ways you can see that, and, and I, I try to kinda explain that the ta- the, the give and take and tug-of-war that, that was taking place between the ambitions and aspirations of the Court of Versailles, you know, under Louis XIV or even under, under Louis' predecessor, under his father Louis XIII and then Cardinal Richelieu about the role and place that the Kingdom of France is supposed to play and, and what, what... how it will be projected.

[laughs] This sounds, this sounds familiar.

How does this begin to transform the very definition of America, really? I mean, first of all, it's now becoming a continental power, and that's being perceived both by the European powers, but also by ourselves, which is new.

Yeah, and I think this is where I want to point out that I think the traditional story of Louisiana Purchase, in fact, if you read most of the accounts and certainly the ones that we teach our K-12 children, is the story that Louisiana Purchase is signed in April of 1803.

It is ratified.

We have the ceremony in New Orleans in December.

And then overnight, almost immediately, United States, quote unquote, doubled its territory.

And the truth is certainly different.

We already talked about the U.S.-Indian treaty system that the United States began developing.

And by doing it, suddenly makes the presidency a much more powerful office, doesn't he?

What gave the French the right to this land?

So that's a, a very important, uh, question that I, um, took t- kind of head on, uh, because I th- uh, one of the best ways to grapple with Louisiana is to confront this myth, um, that exists, uh, f- in, in for a long time that surrounded this, this topic, and that is the myth that United States overnight doubled its size, that we bought the land.

We actually did not buy the land as such, and, uh, a- anyone, uh, willing to, uh, spend time reading Jefferson's or Gallatin's, if this is Treasury Secretary or any Founding Fathers documents, uh, in, from 1790s forward, will actually get a very, uh, uh, a good sense of what United States was determined to acquire, and this is two things.

One, they do know that the France has, or Spain too, effective control of particular areas.

So for example, New Orleans is a big city.

It's, it's garrisoned.

It, it, it...

Was there slavery i- in these French territories before this acquisition?

Actually, the settlers coming over the Appalachian Trail, the Appalachian Mountains, they were looked as foreigners or hostile to the people that were already settled in Mississippi Valley, in New Orleans, which I found fascinating.

Absolutely.

In fact, that's one of the core issues of the book.

I think issues that should feel relevant to our own current discussions of immigration and how we handle and what it represents.

And I think that's one of the issues that has not been discussed enough in the context of losing a purchase.

And what I mean is that I think one of the really interesting aspects of Louisiana Purchase is this immense demographic pressure and really competing imperial visions that are shaping North American continent on the eve of Louisiana Purchase and then, of course, as a result of it in the subsequent decades.

During the American Revolutionary period, and we are celebrating 250th anniversary of it.

Why is that such a canard? Why is that, you know, the best land deal in history? Thomas Jefferson manages to wrangle it out of Napoleon's hands, but it really, a lot more costly than how it's sold in the school