Cerillion

And it's quite unusual for a n- for a CFO.

And he's a, he was at C- he was CFO at Cerillion previously, wasn't he?

Yeah, he was, yeah.

Is that right?

But that's essentially the sort of the trade that you take here that these integrations will go through.

These will be relatively solid reference clients for Cerulean and indeed that they will come through and pay.

So that's sort of fundamentally the crux of the investment thesis.

Again, I'd say the risk reward here is what we deem quite attractive.

I think this agent layer is going to be incredibly heavily contested by a lot of well-funded players.

And I think overall the debate is going to be who owns the data and who owns access to the systems.

where there's really varying approaches to it yet for example a sales force has gone completely headless and said we don't mind how you access it and and how you operate it you don't even need to use our front end you can use any agent that you bring and you can integrate it and we're going to be that book of records for example and then other companies which have been much more protective of their software so i feel like that is still a battle that is very much fought and i don't think you could underwrite a base case that Cerulean is going to win at this particular part of the stack yet.

I think they're really well positioned and they've got definitely got the right infrastructure and systems to enable it.

Okay, good.

We've got Ben Sharman and Grant both asking about Cerulean.

They came out with it.

We talked about it last week.

And it's not dissimilar to all the other big ones they've done.

Yeah, I think that all hits the nail on the head, Paul.

We've always said, every time we've talked about Cerulean, that the thorn in the side is ARR is much lower than a lot of other software companies, as you correctly say.

Therefore, it doesn't take much of a gap in the order book or delays and whatever to knock the forecast.